I think this is a topic that will never end and will never come to a satisfactory conclusion. We just have to be honest about why we do the things we do. It's a tough world out there and we're all just trying to find our place in it.
You left before August? August is why I spend more time there than here at the moment, though I am coming back to Substack to apply the lessons I've learned in the last month there. Why do I spend more time there? Because I am moving faster, with followers, and with making money. Not in great bounds, no. But steady improvement, which I have not yet found here.
It's fine to use both Medium and Substack if you like them both. I left Medium for many reasons and I haven't felt the need to go back. If it's working for you, that's wonderful.
I had my best Substack month in August. I made more money than I ever did at Medium in one month.
Oh hell yes Ramona!!!!!!! PREACH. I just posted about exactly this - but you said it better. You rock. Honesty and authenticity rocks. We CAN stop the you-rub-my-back BS by calling it out when we see it. Thank you thank you thank you.
As a new writer on Substack, I'm simply watching. You guys have to be the leaders in this for us, as at this point I'm clueless, hoping this won't end up just another social media-type cesspool.
That's our hope, too. Notes is new enough that it's still evolving and hasn't settled into a pattern yet. There is still time to figure out how it will work to the best of all of our interests.
All of this talk is healthy, I think, and necessary, but it can't be in argument form, meaning to hurt. That was never my intent here, but it's clear this conversation has struck a nerve.
If we can get our concerns out there and talk them through in an open, honest way we'll build something good here. I don't think any of us see ourselves as 'leaders'. All of our voices need to be heard. We all have a stake in where this is going.
Totally agree, I would hate to see Substack go the way of Medium. As someone retired and on a very limited, very fixed income I cannot allow myself to sign up for all the paid subscriptions I would like to read so I lurk in the free zone.
I do the same, Maite. I pay to subscribe to a few, but I can't subscribe to all of them. And I'll NEVER subscribe to those that are open except for comments. There I draw the line. If I can't join in on the conversation I don't want to be there.
Thank you for pointing this out. It's been a thorn in my side, too, but I feel kind of whiny talking about it. It's validating to see someone else has the same concern. It feels like classist censorship to me. Contributing to a conversation should not be pay-to-play.
I can KIND OF understand the comments being only open to paid subscribers, if you have SO MANY comments, you couldn't easily respond to them all. But with most people, it just feels kind of pissy.
I recently wrote to a writer who I have been following with a Google alert for years. When I found out she was on Substack, I was over the moon. But she does that, "Here's the first part of the story, and you can read the rest if you pay..." and I was like, "I am a fan and you just lost me." Never heard back.
I feel the same way about newsletters that won't let you comment if not a paid subscriber. I'm fairly new here and read a wonderful essay that really inspired me and was so eager to comment and join the conversation. When I wasn't allowed to I felt snubbed and in a way humiliated, as if I wasn't good enough to join the party. I commented about this to the author on one of her notes, in a kind way, never wanting to hurt anyone's feelings, and she replied, kindly, on why she had this limit on comments. I actually felt bad afterwards for having criticized her. So hearing you feel the same way feels like a validation. Thank you for that honesty. Great post all around.
I know how you feel. "Snubbed" is a good word for it. I felt used in a way, since the writer wanted me to share her work but wasn't willing to let me join in on the conversation.
I also approached the writer when it happened (I wonder if it was the same one?), and she said she had to do it to keep out the meanies. I'm not buying it. It's easy enough to block anyone who abuses our comment rules.
I wrote about this on Notes recently and got the biggest response to anything I've said here. It's a real bugbear of mine that someone would close off a potential connection with someone who just wants to celebrate their ideas and their work.
It seems to be a thorn in many of our sides, possibly because we're writers. Our goal is to communicate. Silencing us feels wrong in an environment where we're encouraged to open up and share our thoughts.
Ramona, I've been trying to use Notes to collaborate as much as possible (I've helped set up a couple of writing projects - one on sci-fi and one on horror), and these efforts are organic and focused on the fun aspect of making these pieces. I think something like that, where it's a collective effort, works best in an environment like Notes.
Also: dog pics. If anyone hates dog pics, kindly unfollow me, and you will never see any of my little furbaby angels.
I would be super happy to have you collaborating with any group I'm involved in, for what that's worth, too. I'm a fan.
Thanks so much, Andrew. I think using notes to message and collaborate is a splendid idea and in keeping with the notion that we writers need that kind of mutual support. I dislike the part that feels like exclusion. I'm seeing too much of that.
And dog pics are always good. I need to post more of my grand-dog, Sammy!
I want to keep my notes for writers. And I so feel this. I HATE marketing. I suck at it. And yet I know that to be a writer and "make it" there is an element of marketing that is necessary.
But I'm so thankful for you and the way you honestly wade through this. Thank you for being an example and please don't feel like you can't write honestly.
I seem to be getting more and more brave. We'll see if that's a good thing!
As to marketing, yes, it has to be done, but how to do it without feeling as if we're shilling instead of writing the stuff that will force readers to sit up and take notice? I'm beginning to wonder if I'll ever find the balance.
I'm pretty sure I won't 😂 But I've found the community here to be more helpful than I've found anywhere else in my entire life. I think I will do a meeting with Sarah just to see if she sees anything else that I can do and any doable ideas for paid subscribers. I for that even if I get a small bump, it will pay for itself.
Have you met with Sarah before? Just wondered how useful it is. I admit to a certain turnoff because she advertises so much on Notes and doesn't say you have to be a paid subscriber in order to use anything she offers. But she obviously has something to offer, so I'm intrigued but not enough to buy a subscription, I admit.
No, and I don't have time to make a subscription worth it because I barely have time to keep up my writing schedule these days, BUT I'm willing to do a single session with some trained eyes. I'll let you know if it makes a difference.
You express my writer's desire exactly by your quote below:
"I want people to notice me, too. I sometimes desperately want people to notice what I’ve written—especially if I’ve put my whole heart into it and it just languishes there, never to be read."
I suppose I draw the line like this. If a piece of writing is really good, whether ours or someone else's, we ought to feel fine publicizing it.
I think a good test is whether I'm spending a lot more time commenting on, restacking, and praising the work of others that I truly admire than the time I spend figuring out how to be noticed. That should definitely be the case since I'm one writer and there are so many others whose writing I truly enjoy.
I have very little to add that hasn't been said already. I'm also spending a lot of time in the free zone but I agree that the marketing that is "you rub my back, I'll rub yours" is icky. I mostly stay out of those and am honestly paying for literally 1 single subscription right now, and that's writers at work, with Sarah Fay, which I feel adds a lot of value via actually being more like course material than just straight writing.
That said, I love the sense of community in Notes when it's organic. I missed that when I limited my time on Twitter, missed making online friends and building community. That's the side of Notes I really enjoy.
The one thing Notes has going for it right now is that sense of community. I want that to go on, but I fear it won't if the emphasis, especially by the Substack crew, is on the marketing and not on the art.
I get why they do it, I just hate to see it devolve that way.
Interesting. That's the aspect that keeps me off notes! Don't get me wrong, I really love people and interacting, but the spur-of-the moment, say-what-you-think stuff doesn't set well with me. It's too easy to drop something your emotions shot past your brain so fast, you missed the power of it, and it wasn't what you really wanted to say at all.
If only we could all employ ad writers. Really, really good ones who could get the job done. You know, who could WRITE the magic words that would convince everyone to flock to us and read what we ourselves have to say as we WRITE.
I guess it depends on the kind of communicator you are. I love the off the cuff exchanges, personally, and spend a lot of time chatting with readers and fellow writers that way. If you've done the Author Ecosystem Quiz by Russel Nohelty, this might be more about the kind of author you are. I took the quiz and I'm a forest, which means a lot of the value I add is in my direct interactions with others, which fits with my personality and communication style.
There's an Author Ecosystem Quiz? I'll have to look for it. In advance, I'd want to be 'Forest', too, if only that I'm most at home in the forest and I want it to show. 😏
"Tundras generally like to share cool things with their audience, so creating a mailing list to curate interesting things they find is perfect for them to interact with fans around common interests. "
The quiz is geared toward writers who have published books so I was kind of a fish out of water. My answers didn't reflect that kind of publishing, so I mostly winged it! 😊
As a human being I too need to be seen and heard. As a new writer / author this is even more the case. I write Notes but they rarely get any reaction / traction. I thought I was doing something wrong as I always get good interaction on my social media. I love the fact there’s no algorithm and I have a small select following of 15 or so people but I am feeling as if I’m walking in a dark wood, I see lights twinkling in the distance but I never seem to find where they’re coming from. I love the idea of us guys chatting in notes in the hope it will redress the balance a little. Thank you for sharing and helping me feel less alone here 💖
I have no $ to give but enjoy reading so very much, If I only get a glimpse/preview and want to read the rest.... it’s going to go unread. You can only enjoy this is you have this... $ to subscribe.
Many of us don't choose to charge for reading our pieces, but more and more do. Let's face it, all writers would like to get paid for our work. For one thing, the world sees more value in paid works than in unpaid. But the reality is, not every writer on Substack is going to be paid for their work. The system is too cumbersome for that, and nobody can afford to subscribe to everyone they might want to.
I don't know how they're ever going to resolve it, but my own choice right now is to make everything I write free and open. Thanks for being here!
Sep 21, 2023·edited Sep 21, 2023Liked by Ramona Grigg
Everything I write is FREE, except for the stories I put up about the mill. I charge for those because I don't really want to write them. People want to read them, or so they say. (Spoiler alert: They don't, because not a single person has gone behind the paywall to read them.) I plan to keep my SHORT STORIES AFTER 8 free forever. When I start writing my Roman epic, then I'm going to charge. Just because. I told myself I wouldn't charge until I had 2000 subscribers, so I may be free for quite a while.
That's interesting, Ben, your comment about the mill and not wanting to write about it. Would you mind giving us the backstory? What is the mill and how is it important in your life? Why are those stories behind a paywall? Sorry if I'm getting nosy here.
Of course, you don't have to respond to any of this!
My last little bit at the mill was when I had the "accident". My best friend died under the wheels of the machine I was driving. He slipped on a patch of ice from behind a row of logs. I never saw him. Never knew I ran him over until someone called it out on the radio. I was fucked up for quite a while. Didn't write for about about 10-11 months. Writing about the mill isn't something I want to do, even though they're funny stories. As time goes by, it's easier to put it all behind me -- but at least I know how the story ends if it ever becomes a book.
Oh, right. Sorry. I did read your story and it was gut wrenching. Did it seem to help to write it out? It requires a certain amount of bravery to pull that out of you and put it out there for others to read. If it was cathartic and necessary, then bravo. Now it's your story and you get to do with it as you choose. If putting it behind a paywall seems right to you, that's all that matters.
You don't have to apologize. It's all good. I had a lot of help with different therapists. And time really does help. I mean, I've had to deal with death in my life before, but this was so different. I'll never forget what happened, but I can accept that it was an accident and shit happens. It was the "perfect storm" of circumstances. A cold snap that lasted ten days. The entire area ran out of salt. It was just...karma.
Everything I write is free. Readers can sub as a donation if they want. Posts go into paid archive after 3 months. I don’t expect to make money, but I want to be read!
I've often wondered about the reasoning behind paid archives. Maybe you could tell me?
I like the idea of readers finding my pieces in the archives, even years later. I often rummage through them and post them again, just because I like them and want them to be seen. I like knowing they're discoverable and maybe even enjoyed. I've seen others put them behind paywalls and I've wondered how that benefits.
Good question. To be honest I think I do it because that’s the general thing . In 6 months I e had them in and out of paywall no end of times, changed it from 2 months to 1 month to 3. And often take stuff out of the archive to refer to it in a post. So, the short answer is - I got caught in the ‘do this, do that’ trap.
I can't speak to this with any real knowledge of how "content scraping" works, but I've heard around the water coolers that this is another reason some writers paywall their archives, so that their content doesn't get scooped up and repurposed by robot (or human) entities. I think I've seen you in Michael Estrin's comments. He recently learned (and Noted) that several of his Substack stories were published word for word on another site without his knowledge! This is scary for writers. And if paywalling offers some protection against that kind of thing, I can see the value in it.
The repetition of the same new to Substack best-selling authors and Substack gurus (one of whom I unsubscribed from) in "Top posts", again in "Recommended posts", again in "People to follow", and yet again in "Just launched" smacks of a quid pro quo.
The "Top Posts" thing kills me. The first round of "Top Posts in Fiction" I viewed revealed not one piece of actual fiction. The writers of those Substacks chose to categorize as "fiction" even though they might only be discussing it in some way. Meanwhile, fiction writing (and creative writing in general) remains buried, un-"recommended" and un-"featured" by Substack. Reason being... we're not making them any money. ☹️
I'm a bit bummed about the app. There have been frequent updates to it recently, which all seem to me to be geared towards facilitating a subtle/sneaky shift in the direction of highlighting "most popular" writers at the expense of easily finding posts by all the rest.
More and more I'm getting the feeling that the Substack head office is more attuned to making a profit off of their writers than they are in providing a space for us.
It's all about the dollars now. I'm really sad to see that.
I've upgraded to the new app and instead of ads this is what I see: at the very top "read next" then a few notes, "follow friends" then a few notes, "recommended posts" then a few notes, "people to follow" then a few notes, "just connected" then a few notes, "writer picks" then a few notes. Elizabeth Gilbert and Junot Diaz were featured among other top writers. To me this is as annoying as ads. I like discovering new writers but when the emphasis seems to be on promoting already "popular writers" I get a bad taste in my mouth. But top named writers make money for them - and in the end a "free" app is all about how to monetize. It seems more people are excited about the new app than not but at least for now I am not one of them.
Sounds like something I'm not going to mind skipping. I don't use my phone much for Substack, anyway, and when I do it seems to work fine without a dedicated app.
Totally agree. I think it's great some popular writers are found here, but I wish there was more emphasis on promoting and encouraging new writers, and a place where new writers could discover each other. A level playing field for writers, unknown and popular, to play.
That's the hard part! I want to discover smaller writers like me so we can build a community around our smallness. I'm not interested in supporting hugely popular Substack that won't even notice I'm supporting them. But it's getting harder and harder to find the little guys. We're getting buried.
It's your choice to stay away, of course, but I don't want you to think there's nothing good there. There is! Too much. I'm over there too often. It's just the emphasis on money and success that turns me off.
Let's be honest...I like that. I'm guilty of trying to market myself on Notes. I put up pieces of stories I've written just to remind people that I'm here. I'm like you though, Ramona. I see that list go up and I scroll down and ask myself: How come I can't make that list? I try all sorts of stuff. I was hitting up Margaret Atwood earlier in the week, just trying to get her to Subscribe and Recommend me, but no go. I'm not very good at marketing. I don't know how to do it for the most part. I was never a part of Medium. I never had a blog. I had to work for a living and wasn't into the social part of the internet. I went to work, came home, wrote my stories and went to be; then got up and did it all over again. I did belong to a writer's group once, but that was a long time ago, and when the guy running it decided to try and publish something he had laying around, it went bust. (He didn't. He's now an international best seller. Yeah, for him!) But I want to get noticed just as much as the next guy. I don't want to spend hours and hours on Notes, but I do some days because I'm stuck somewhere in my story -- like I am right now.
Sounds like we're in the same boat or on the same page or something like that. We don't write in a vacuum. When we hit the 'Publish' button it means we're writing to be read. We want to be read by a lot of people and we want them to acknowledge our presence. And, oh yeah, we want to get paid for it.
I keep saying I'm here for the long haul...but really, how long is that if I'm already 65? I've got 20-25 years at most. It took me 50 years to get here!
Cliquish - THANK YOU for the word. I’ve had this feeling since the begin, but I thought it’s just me, never really an insider in a group, since school times. YES, cliquish it is.
Hi Zoe, I'm like you, never really an insider in a group. I've always felt a lot like I have been on the outside looking in. Thanks for commenting. I just subscribed to your Stack. I think there's a need for a group here! :)
I'm working on posting a "round up" post this week to include Substackers I think need a little boost. Folks I've recently subscribed to, posts I've enjoyed, conversations I've had.... Kicking off some inclusion!
From the outside, looking in at the cool kids - that’s a frequent feeling for me on Notes as well. On the other hand, I’ve discovered some fantastic Substacks that way - this very post included. Thank you for voicing this, Ramona.
It depends on what and who we are honest with. My stories about myself don't go anywhere. My stories that focus on others, do. But then, my stories about myself in recent times focused too much on what was going wrong, instead of what is going right. That has changed. I believe a lot of readers are tired of things going wrong. And I don't blame any of us. I believe many of our stories are, at this time, pretty much like other stories, because many of us are angry at the same things in the same way. As you wrote - we have been preaching to the choir. I wrote about politics from 2015 until 2021, elsewhere. I stopped. The sameness had crept into everyone's work except for a few I still followed. But they are falling into the same rut now. I finally chewed out a political columnist with a comment in notes yesterday, because I'm exhausted by the trend of political whine we have now. I stated my complaint, and will not repeat it in my work. I am making myself quietly wear out a grudge about a certain kind of abuse before I begin the job of explaining it to a larger audience. Because the first essays I wrote about it died on the vine. The best honesty we can have as writers is facing the truth of what pieces of our work are not being read or heard. That comes with bruising. And needs to include acceptance. That means being honest with ourselves.
Yes, the breakthrough does come from being honest with ourselves, but the constant question for me is, who exactly am I writing for? I do write for my readers, but certainly not all of them. That would be impossible, since they're not all the same.
Do I write for me? I do. At least half of the time. Much of the time I'm writing to reinforce or clarify what I've been thinking. Sometimes I just want to tell a story, and I do that most often at my other newsletter, Constant Commoner.
But here at Writer Everlasting I'm on a mission to remind writers that we're not alone in our thoughts and fears. I talk about that, both for me and for them, and the longer I do it the more comfortable it becomes.
So I guess what I'm saying is we have to be satisfied with our own thoughts behind our writing before we can expect our readers to be satisfied. That's the only 'secret' to all of this I'm actually aware of.
Agreed. But, recently I was reminded of something when I finally got around to watching Glenn Close's film, "The Wife." There is a line in it that reminded me that writers should not write for ourselves. Because, honestly, we tend to include things that only interest us within our words. The rest of the line in the film is writers should "write to be read." Since hearing that line I spend more time putting writing aside then going back only as a reader. That's easy for me at my advanced age, because the short term memory is getting a bit frayed! That lack of memory has made me a better self editor. Because if I can make myself sit up and go, Ah! when I read my own stuff, I'm ready to take on the world. Otherwise it stays in drafts. And that's okay. I never throw anything out until it gives up on its own.
Sure, we do write to be read or we'd never push that 'Publish' button. 😉 But we still have to satisfy ourselves or it won't be something we'll ever want to keep doing.
I'm 86 now so I'm well aware of the limits of my writing abilities.
I've had chemo and I've gone through grief recently and my brain is still reeling from the aftereffects. I re-read an in-depth piece I'd written around eight years ago and I knew as I read it I could never write like that now. So I'm adapting and enjoying what to some might seem like limitations, but to me feels like liberation.
I'll always miss writing those longer, deeper pieces but I'm okay with the work I'm doing now. This is who I am.
Yay! Good for you! I hope your life is comfortable now, in spite of challenges! I imagined you much younger and I wrote from a perspective I don't wish on anyone of an elder generation: I am forced out of retirement to start a new career to support myself. I am using a photo so out of date! LOL And staying determined. And I agree with you - in spite of the terrors and the grief of the past year, and many limitations, (I just walked up and down a hill with a rollator this week, for the first time!) I am feeling the liberation, too. Especially the liberation to believe in myself about getting my life back. So consider this an apology, a "Never mind!", and hope for you and me both.
LOL. No need to apologize, Sana. And good for you, too! In spite of everything, you're moving forward, looking for the light.
Since my husband died some 18 months ago I've opened up my personal writing to an astonishing degree, considering how private I'd chosen to keep it throughout my writing career.
I wrote about it a while back. You may find something useful in it, as well as in the comments. As usual, our bunch came through! I look to them to get me on the right track and they do it--every time!
I think this is a topic that will never end and will never come to a satisfactory conclusion. We just have to be honest about why we do the things we do. It's a tough world out there and we're all just trying to find our place in it.
Thanks for joining in!
Thank you kindly!
Having recently left Medium, I don't want Substack following down the same paths as it has gone down.
It's my biggest fear. Honestly.
You left before August? August is why I spend more time there than here at the moment, though I am coming back to Substack to apply the lessons I've learned in the last month there. Why do I spend more time there? Because I am moving faster, with followers, and with making money. Not in great bounds, no. But steady improvement, which I have not yet found here.
It's fine to use both Medium and Substack if you like them both. I left Medium for many reasons and I haven't felt the need to go back. If it's working for you, that's wonderful.
I had my best Substack month in August. I made more money than I ever did at Medium in one month.
Oh hell yes Ramona!!!!!!! PREACH. I just posted about exactly this - but you said it better. You rock. Honesty and authenticity rocks. We CAN stop the you-rub-my-back BS by calling it out when we see it. Thank you thank you thank you.
Wow, Jill, we are on the same page, aren't we? I suspect we're not alone. The others just haven't spoken out yet.
As a new writer on Substack, I'm simply watching. You guys have to be the leaders in this for us, as at this point I'm clueless, hoping this won't end up just another social media-type cesspool.
That's our hope, too. Notes is new enough that it's still evolving and hasn't settled into a pattern yet. There is still time to figure out how it will work to the best of all of our interests.
All of this talk is healthy, I think, and necessary, but it can't be in argument form, meaning to hurt. That was never my intent here, but it's clear this conversation has struck a nerve.
If we can get our concerns out there and talk them through in an open, honest way we'll build something good here. I don't think any of us see ourselves as 'leaders'. All of our voices need to be heard. We all have a stake in where this is going.
Thanks for speaking up!
Totally agree, I would hate to see Substack go the way of Medium. As someone retired and on a very limited, very fixed income I cannot allow myself to sign up for all the paid subscriptions I would like to read so I lurk in the free zone.
I do the same, Maite. I pay to subscribe to a few, but I can't subscribe to all of them. And I'll NEVER subscribe to those that are open except for comments. There I draw the line. If I can't join in on the conversation I don't want to be there.
Thank you for pointing this out. It's been a thorn in my side, too, but I feel kind of whiny talking about it. It's validating to see someone else has the same concern. It feels like classist censorship to me. Contributing to a conversation should not be pay-to-play.
I think it's the dumbest thing on Substack and I wish they would take that option away. Either pay for the whole thing or open it up completely.
I've never liked being silenced.
I can KIND OF understand the comments being only open to paid subscribers, if you have SO MANY comments, you couldn't easily respond to them all. But with most people, it just feels kind of pissy.
I recently wrote to a writer who I have been following with a Google alert for years. When I found out she was on Substack, I was over the moon. But she does that, "Here's the first part of the story, and you can read the rest if you pay..." and I was like, "I am a fan and you just lost me." Never heard back.
I feel the same way about newsletters that won't let you comment if not a paid subscriber. I'm fairly new here and read a wonderful essay that really inspired me and was so eager to comment and join the conversation. When I wasn't allowed to I felt snubbed and in a way humiliated, as if I wasn't good enough to join the party. I commented about this to the author on one of her notes, in a kind way, never wanting to hurt anyone's feelings, and she replied, kindly, on why she had this limit on comments. I actually felt bad afterwards for having criticized her. So hearing you feel the same way feels like a validation. Thank you for that honesty. Great post all around.
I know how you feel. "Snubbed" is a good word for it. I felt used in a way, since the writer wanted me to share her work but wasn't willing to let me join in on the conversation.
I also approached the writer when it happened (I wonder if it was the same one?), and she said she had to do it to keep out the meanies. I'm not buying it. It's easy enough to block anyone who abuses our comment rules.
I wrote about this on Notes recently and got the biggest response to anything I've said here. It's a real bugbear of mine that someone would close off a potential connection with someone who just wants to celebrate their ideas and their work.
It seems to be a thorn in many of our sides, possibly because we're writers. Our goal is to communicate. Silencing us feels wrong in an environment where we're encouraged to open up and share our thoughts.
It's an oddity I haven't seen anywhere else.
Ramona, I've been trying to use Notes to collaborate as much as possible (I've helped set up a couple of writing projects - one on sci-fi and one on horror), and these efforts are organic and focused on the fun aspect of making these pieces. I think something like that, where it's a collective effort, works best in an environment like Notes.
Also: dog pics. If anyone hates dog pics, kindly unfollow me, and you will never see any of my little furbaby angels.
I would be super happy to have you collaborating with any group I'm involved in, for what that's worth, too. I'm a fan.
Thanks so much, Andrew. I think using notes to message and collaborate is a splendid idea and in keeping with the notion that we writers need that kind of mutual support. I dislike the part that feels like exclusion. I'm seeing too much of that.
And dog pics are always good. I need to post more of my grand-dog, Sammy!
Heck yeah, no exclusion necessary! I mean, except for a-holes. I have no qualms excluding them from my life.
PLEASE share Sammy pics, and tag me so I don't miss them!
Will do!
I want to keep my notes for writers. And I so feel this. I HATE marketing. I suck at it. And yet I know that to be a writer and "make it" there is an element of marketing that is necessary.
But I'm so thankful for you and the way you honestly wade through this. Thank you for being an example and please don't feel like you can't write honestly.
I seem to be getting more and more brave. We'll see if that's a good thing!
As to marketing, yes, it has to be done, but how to do it without feeling as if we're shilling instead of writing the stuff that will force readers to sit up and take notice? I'm beginning to wonder if I'll ever find the balance.
I'm pretty sure I won't 😂 But I've found the community here to be more helpful than I've found anywhere else in my entire life. I think I will do a meeting with Sarah just to see if she sees anything else that I can do and any doable ideas for paid subscribers. I for that even if I get a small bump, it will pay for itself.
Have you met with Sarah before? Just wondered how useful it is. I admit to a certain turnoff because she advertises so much on Notes and doesn't say you have to be a paid subscriber in order to use anything she offers. But she obviously has something to offer, so I'm intrigued but not enough to buy a subscription, I admit.
No, and I don't have time to make a subscription worth it because I barely have time to keep up my writing schedule these days, BUT I'm willing to do a single session with some trained eyes. I'll let you know if it makes a difference.
I’m curious too! Which must mean the marketing is working 🤷♀️🤦♀️
You express my writer's desire exactly by your quote below:
"I want people to notice me, too. I sometimes desperately want people to notice what I’ve written—especially if I’ve put my whole heart into it and it just languishes there, never to be read."
I suppose I draw the line like this. If a piece of writing is really good, whether ours or someone else's, we ought to feel fine publicizing it.
I think a good test is whether I'm spending a lot more time commenting on, restacking, and praising the work of others that I truly admire than the time I spend figuring out how to be noticed. That should definitely be the case since I'm one writer and there are so many others whose writing I truly enjoy.
Thanks for this honest post!
I have very little to add that hasn't been said already. I'm also spending a lot of time in the free zone but I agree that the marketing that is "you rub my back, I'll rub yours" is icky. I mostly stay out of those and am honestly paying for literally 1 single subscription right now, and that's writers at work, with Sarah Fay, which I feel adds a lot of value via actually being more like course material than just straight writing.
That said, I love the sense of community in Notes when it's organic. I missed that when I limited my time on Twitter, missed making online friends and building community. That's the side of Notes I really enjoy.
The one thing Notes has going for it right now is that sense of community. I want that to go on, but I fear it won't if the emphasis, especially by the Substack crew, is on the marketing and not on the art.
I get why they do it, I just hate to see it devolve that way.
Interesting. That's the aspect that keeps me off notes! Don't get me wrong, I really love people and interacting, but the spur-of-the moment, say-what-you-think stuff doesn't set well with me. It's too easy to drop something your emotions shot past your brain so fast, you missed the power of it, and it wasn't what you really wanted to say at all.
I'm definitely do not enjoy marketing. Isn't that for ad writers?
If only we could all employ ad writers. Really, really good ones who could get the job done. You know, who could WRITE the magic words that would convince everyone to flock to us and read what we ourselves have to say as we WRITE.
And would gladly pay us for the privilege.
It's a cruel world out there.
Gee, what fun would THAT be?
I know! But I actually had fun writing that, so I've accomplished something!
I guess it depends on the kind of communicator you are. I love the off the cuff exchanges, personally, and spend a lot of time chatting with readers and fellow writers that way. If you've done the Author Ecosystem Quiz by Russel Nohelty, this might be more about the kind of author you are. I took the quiz and I'm a forest, which means a lot of the value I add is in my direct interactions with others, which fits with my personality and communication style.
There's an Author Ecosystem Quiz? I'll have to look for it. In advance, I'd want to be 'Forest', too, if only that I'm most at home in the forest and I want it to show. 😏
you can find it here: https://authorecosystem.com/
pretty helpful to think about how you interact with your readers, especially if you're looking to grow.
Thanks! According to them I'm a Tundra:
"Tundras generally like to share cool things with their audience, so creating a mailing list to curate interesting things they find is perfect for them to interact with fans around common interests. "
The quiz is geared toward writers who have published books so I was kind of a fish out of water. My answers didn't reflect that kind of publishing, so I mostly winged it! 😊
As a human being I too need to be seen and heard. As a new writer / author this is even more the case. I write Notes but they rarely get any reaction / traction. I thought I was doing something wrong as I always get good interaction on my social media. I love the fact there’s no algorithm and I have a small select following of 15 or so people but I am feeling as if I’m walking in a dark wood, I see lights twinkling in the distance but I never seem to find where they’re coming from. I love the idea of us guys chatting in notes in the hope it will redress the balance a little. Thank you for sharing and helping me feel less alone here 💖
Thank you for listening and responding. We're in this together. That's some consolation!
Thank you too .
I have no $ to give but enjoy reading so very much, If I only get a glimpse/preview and want to read the rest.... it’s going to go unread. You can only enjoy this is you have this... $ to subscribe.
Many of us don't choose to charge for reading our pieces, but more and more do. Let's face it, all writers would like to get paid for our work. For one thing, the world sees more value in paid works than in unpaid. But the reality is, not every writer on Substack is going to be paid for their work. The system is too cumbersome for that, and nobody can afford to subscribe to everyone they might want to.
I don't know how they're ever going to resolve it, but my own choice right now is to make everything I write free and open. Thanks for being here!
Everything I write is FREE, except for the stories I put up about the mill. I charge for those because I don't really want to write them. People want to read them, or so they say. (Spoiler alert: They don't, because not a single person has gone behind the paywall to read them.) I plan to keep my SHORT STORIES AFTER 8 free forever. When I start writing my Roman epic, then I'm going to charge. Just because. I told myself I wouldn't charge until I had 2000 subscribers, so I may be free for quite a while.
That's interesting, Ben, your comment about the mill and not wanting to write about it. Would you mind giving us the backstory? What is the mill and how is it important in your life? Why are those stories behind a paywall? Sorry if I'm getting nosy here.
Of course, you don't have to respond to any of this!
My last little bit at the mill was when I had the "accident". My best friend died under the wheels of the machine I was driving. He slipped on a patch of ice from behind a row of logs. I never saw him. Never knew I ran him over until someone called it out on the radio. I was fucked up for quite a while. Didn't write for about about 10-11 months. Writing about the mill isn't something I want to do, even though they're funny stories. As time goes by, it's easier to put it all behind me -- but at least I know how the story ends if it ever becomes a book.
Oh, right. Sorry. I did read your story and it was gut wrenching. Did it seem to help to write it out? It requires a certain amount of bravery to pull that out of you and put it out there for others to read. If it was cathartic and necessary, then bravo. Now it's your story and you get to do with it as you choose. If putting it behind a paywall seems right to you, that's all that matters.
Again, I'm so sorry.
You don't have to apologize. It's all good. I had a lot of help with different therapists. And time really does help. I mean, I've had to deal with death in my life before, but this was so different. I'll never forget what happened, but I can accept that it was an accident and shit happens. It was the "perfect storm" of circumstances. A cold snap that lasted ten days. The entire area ran out of salt. It was just...karma.
Thank you. Straight up honest.
Everything I write is free. Readers can sub as a donation if they want. Posts go into paid archive after 3 months. I don’t expect to make money, but I want to be read!
I've often wondered about the reasoning behind paid archives. Maybe you could tell me?
I like the idea of readers finding my pieces in the archives, even years later. I often rummage through them and post them again, just because I like them and want them to be seen. I like knowing they're discoverable and maybe even enjoyed. I've seen others put them behind paywalls and I've wondered how that benefits.
Thanks.
Good question. To be honest I think I do it because that’s the general thing . In 6 months I e had them in and out of paywall no end of times, changed it from 2 months to 1 month to 3. And often take stuff out of the archive to refer to it in a post. So, the short answer is - I got caught in the ‘do this, do that’ trap.
An honest answer!
I can't speak to this with any real knowledge of how "content scraping" works, but I've heard around the water coolers that this is another reason some writers paywall their archives, so that their content doesn't get scooped up and repurposed by robot (or human) entities. I think I've seen you in Michael Estrin's comments. He recently learned (and Noted) that several of his Substack stories were published word for word on another site without his knowledge! This is scary for writers. And if paywalling offers some protection against that kind of thing, I can see the value in it.
Also left Medium. Also concerned about the direction Substack is taking. Have you seen the new app?
Any thoughts?
I haven't tried the new app yet. I'm curious, too!
Spoiler alert. ⚠️ Not a fan 😒
What don't you like about it? I see they're talking about it on Office Hours right now. Mixed feelings there, too.
The repetition of the same new to Substack best-selling authors and Substack gurus (one of whom I unsubscribed from) in "Top posts", again in "Recommended posts", again in "People to follow", and yet again in "Just launched" smacks of a quid pro quo.
Rats! Should have known...
The "Top Posts" thing kills me. The first round of "Top Posts in Fiction" I viewed revealed not one piece of actual fiction. The writers of those Substacks chose to categorize as "fiction" even though they might only be discussing it in some way. Meanwhile, fiction writing (and creative writing in general) remains buried, un-"recommended" and un-"featured" by Substack. Reason being... we're not making them any money. ☹️
I'm a bit bummed about the app. There have been frequent updates to it recently, which all seem to me to be geared towards facilitating a subtle/sneaky shift in the direction of highlighting "most popular" writers at the expense of easily finding posts by all the rest.
More and more I'm getting the feeling that the Substack head office is more attuned to making a profit off of their writers than they are in providing a space for us.
It's all about the dollars now. I'm really sad to see that.
I've upgraded to the new app and instead of ads this is what I see: at the very top "read next" then a few notes, "follow friends" then a few notes, "recommended posts" then a few notes, "people to follow" then a few notes, "just connected" then a few notes, "writer picks" then a few notes. Elizabeth Gilbert and Junot Diaz were featured among other top writers. To me this is as annoying as ads. I like discovering new writers but when the emphasis seems to be on promoting already "popular writers" I get a bad taste in my mouth. But top named writers make money for them - and in the end a "free" app is all about how to monetize. It seems more people are excited about the new app than not but at least for now I am not one of them.
Sounds like something I'm not going to mind skipping. I don't use my phone much for Substack, anyway, and when I do it seems to work fine without a dedicated app.
I think similar changes will come to the desktop….:-(
Totally agree. I think it's great some popular writers are found here, but I wish there was more emphasis on promoting and encouraging new writers, and a place where new writers could discover each other. A level playing field for writers, unknown and popular, to play.
That would be wonderful. I believe it could happen, but will it?
That's the hard part! I want to discover smaller writers like me so we can build a community around our smallness. I'm not interested in supporting hugely popular Substack that won't even notice I'm supporting them. But it's getting harder and harder to find the little guys. We're getting buried.
Yes, I do the same. Not as much as I would want but as much as I can.
Feeling this too, keenly. Especially in the world of fiction.
Well said, Ramona!! 👏👏👏
I haven't posted a single thing on notes and I think I may keep staying away. Thanks for your honesty!
It's your choice to stay away, of course, but I don't want you to think there's nothing good there. There is! Too much. I'm over there too often. It's just the emphasis on money and success that turns me off.
Let's be honest...I like that. I'm guilty of trying to market myself on Notes. I put up pieces of stories I've written just to remind people that I'm here. I'm like you though, Ramona. I see that list go up and I scroll down and ask myself: How come I can't make that list? I try all sorts of stuff. I was hitting up Margaret Atwood earlier in the week, just trying to get her to Subscribe and Recommend me, but no go. I'm not very good at marketing. I don't know how to do it for the most part. I was never a part of Medium. I never had a blog. I had to work for a living and wasn't into the social part of the internet. I went to work, came home, wrote my stories and went to be; then got up and did it all over again. I did belong to a writer's group once, but that was a long time ago, and when the guy running it decided to try and publish something he had laying around, it went bust. (He didn't. He's now an international best seller. Yeah, for him!) But I want to get noticed just as much as the next guy. I don't want to spend hours and hours on Notes, but I do some days because I'm stuck somewhere in my story -- like I am right now.
I appreciate your honesty, Ben. 😊
Sounds like we're in the same boat or on the same page or something like that. We don't write in a vacuum. When we hit the 'Publish' button it means we're writing to be read. We want to be read by a lot of people and we want them to acknowledge our presence. And, oh yeah, we want to get paid for it.
Is that too damn much to ask?? 🙄
I mean, if we're really being honest....?
I keep saying I'm here for the long haul...but really, how long is that if I'm already 65? I've got 20-25 years at most. It took me 50 years to get here!
I'm 20 years older than you are, Ben. That may be why I'm getting so anxious about all of this!
What's a girl gotta do to get noticed around here, right?
Right. I've tried everything short of lifting my skirt.
Those days are long past. 😏
🤣
Oh, I hear that! I’m 68 and only just got here!
Ramona, thank you for your honesty. The marketing posts on Notes get overwhelming and sometimes feel very cliquish.
They really do. I see no problem with pointing that out.
It does remind me some of the political blogging cliques that existed back in my days of involvement.
Too much. I think that's what's making me uneasy.
Yeah, me too. I always appreciated Mike's Blog Roundup on C&L.
Cliquish - THANK YOU for the word. I’ve had this feeling since the begin, but I thought it’s just me, never really an insider in a group, since school times. YES, cliquish it is.
Hi Zoe, I'm like you, never really an insider in a group. I've always felt a lot like I have been on the outside looking in. Thanks for commenting. I just subscribed to your Stack. I think there's a need for a group here! :)
Thanks a lot, Pamela :), yes, a group if outsiders become insiders ;)
So be it! As I like to say, "Intent makes manifest."
A group that is never cliquish! Always inclusive. Nobody left behind.
Yes, absolutely! I'm gearing up for a "round-up" post this weekend.
Wait...what?
I'm working on posting a "round up" post this week to include Substackers I think need a little boost. Folks I've recently subscribed to, posts I've enjoyed, conversations I've had.... Kicking off some inclusion!
From the outside, looking in at the cool kids - that’s a frequent feeling for me on Notes as well. On the other hand, I’ve discovered some fantastic Substacks that way - this very post included. Thank you for voicing this, Ramona.
It's good to know we're together on this. None of us has to feel alone!
Happy to have discover you here Julie!
I will never be one of the cool kids.
Those cool kids are highly overrated. 🤓
It depends on what and who we are honest with. My stories about myself don't go anywhere. My stories that focus on others, do. But then, my stories about myself in recent times focused too much on what was going wrong, instead of what is going right. That has changed. I believe a lot of readers are tired of things going wrong. And I don't blame any of us. I believe many of our stories are, at this time, pretty much like other stories, because many of us are angry at the same things in the same way. As you wrote - we have been preaching to the choir. I wrote about politics from 2015 until 2021, elsewhere. I stopped. The sameness had crept into everyone's work except for a few I still followed. But they are falling into the same rut now. I finally chewed out a political columnist with a comment in notes yesterday, because I'm exhausted by the trend of political whine we have now. I stated my complaint, and will not repeat it in my work. I am making myself quietly wear out a grudge about a certain kind of abuse before I begin the job of explaining it to a larger audience. Because the first essays I wrote about it died on the vine. The best honesty we can have as writers is facing the truth of what pieces of our work are not being read or heard. That comes with bruising. And needs to include acceptance. That means being honest with ourselves.
Yes, the breakthrough does come from being honest with ourselves, but the constant question for me is, who exactly am I writing for? I do write for my readers, but certainly not all of them. That would be impossible, since they're not all the same.
Do I write for me? I do. At least half of the time. Much of the time I'm writing to reinforce or clarify what I've been thinking. Sometimes I just want to tell a story, and I do that most often at my other newsletter, Constant Commoner.
But here at Writer Everlasting I'm on a mission to remind writers that we're not alone in our thoughts and fears. I talk about that, both for me and for them, and the longer I do it the more comfortable it becomes.
So I guess what I'm saying is we have to be satisfied with our own thoughts behind our writing before we can expect our readers to be satisfied. That's the only 'secret' to all of this I'm actually aware of.
Agreed. But, recently I was reminded of something when I finally got around to watching Glenn Close's film, "The Wife." There is a line in it that reminded me that writers should not write for ourselves. Because, honestly, we tend to include things that only interest us within our words. The rest of the line in the film is writers should "write to be read." Since hearing that line I spend more time putting writing aside then going back only as a reader. That's easy for me at my advanced age, because the short term memory is getting a bit frayed! That lack of memory has made me a better self editor. Because if I can make myself sit up and go, Ah! when I read my own stuff, I'm ready to take on the world. Otherwise it stays in drafts. And that's okay. I never throw anything out until it gives up on its own.
Sure, we do write to be read or we'd never push that 'Publish' button. 😉 But we still have to satisfy ourselves or it won't be something we'll ever want to keep doing.
I'm 86 now so I'm well aware of the limits of my writing abilities.
I've had chemo and I've gone through grief recently and my brain is still reeling from the aftereffects. I re-read an in-depth piece I'd written around eight years ago and I knew as I read it I could never write like that now. So I'm adapting and enjoying what to some might seem like limitations, but to me feels like liberation.
I'll always miss writing those longer, deeper pieces but I'm okay with the work I'm doing now. This is who I am.
Yay! Good for you! I hope your life is comfortable now, in spite of challenges! I imagined you much younger and I wrote from a perspective I don't wish on anyone of an elder generation: I am forced out of retirement to start a new career to support myself. I am using a photo so out of date! LOL And staying determined. And I agree with you - in spite of the terrors and the grief of the past year, and many limitations, (I just walked up and down a hill with a rollator this week, for the first time!) I am feeling the liberation, too. Especially the liberation to believe in myself about getting my life back. So consider this an apology, a "Never mind!", and hope for you and me both.
LOL. No need to apologize, Sana. And good for you, too! In spite of everything, you're moving forward, looking for the light.
Since my husband died some 18 months ago I've opened up my personal writing to an astonishing degree, considering how private I'd chosen to keep it throughout my writing career.
I wrote about it a while back. You may find something useful in it, as well as in the comments. As usual, our bunch came through! I look to them to get me on the right track and they do it--every time!
https://writereverlasting.substack.com/p/every-sentence-felt-as-if-it-had/comments