Even further, the folks who are the loudest about having a "right" to post threats on a private business's wall ("online platform") are almost always the ones trying to bully any opposing views into silence. Don't get me wrong- everyone does this from time to time, but the dripping hypocrisy is a bit much for me.
This is a clarifying question about something you wrote that I have not seen expressed before. You wrote that the First Amendment is being "misread."
In what way?
Hate speech is dangerous, but it seems to be protected currently by the First Amendment. And of course it applies only to government and its affiliates.
You have made me think more deeply about this important issue, so your posts and words are not just "preaching to the choir."
Thank you for this. All of it is clarifying, reasoned, reasonable. It is a call for action from all of us who see the difference between hateful speech and hate speech.
Dec 16, 2023·edited Dec 16, 2023Liked by Ramona Grigg
I've been following the rise of open Jew-hatred on college campuses and it's very scary, totally reminiscent of Nazi Germany at the beginning of Hitler's reign. And that's not hyperbole. I've read dozens of books about that period, some by witnesses.
I come from Europe, have been living here for over 25 years now, and the free speech debate still baffles me. And I don't know the answer. In my native country Nazi symbols and speech are illegal. People have been tried (and found guilty - penalty is mostly a fine, but OK) for claiming that the Holocaust didn't happen. So, does that mean free speech is curtailed? Does it mean that "here in America" people are more free? Maybe... but what about the right of society to defend itself against toxic behavior? Where do we draw the line between hate speech and calls for violence? And even trickier, is making some forms of speech illegal threaten other forms of speech ... who decides? And just to add a scoop of complexity, take a look at recent election results in Europe. Hate speech is illegal and yet the extreme right is on the rise. The belief in the strength of the democratic system is eroding and that is much worse than morons in jackboots yelling slogans.
Thank you, Ramona, for connecting our essays. (I will do the same.) I'm glad we're taking time to add some post scripts. Your distinction between different kinds of speech is important.
I remember when people were laughing at the Tea Party in the early 2000s and they grew to become the Republican Party we see today. We want to call things fringe and wave their comments away when we should be monitoring it. They were “crazy” back then but Roe was overturned and people seriously think trans women are men in dresses, a ridiculous idea that now has very real legislation behind it.
Recognizing the presence and even marginal proliferation of hate groups or hateful individuals is part of remaining vigilant and responding to embers before fire spreads.
I just do not see it. You would think there are Nazis around every corner. I have not encountered them on this platform probably because I am not looking for them or do not have common interests. I am not saying they do not exist in the world but I think their presence is minimal.
I am not denying they may be represented on this and other platforms. However be careful who you call a fundamentalist of any stripe. We are all looking for the bogeyman rather than the light.
They are human. And denying that doesn't gain us support, it gives them leverage. It is precisely because I so hate Nazis that I'm calling for their opinions to be allowed here.
Even further, the folks who are the loudest about having a "right" to post threats on a private business's wall ("online platform") are almost always the ones trying to bully any opposing views into silence. Don't get me wrong- everyone does this from time to time, but the dripping hypocrisy is a bit much for me.
Hi Ramona,
This is a clarifying question about something you wrote that I have not seen expressed before. You wrote that the First Amendment is being "misread."
In what way?
Hate speech is dangerous, but it seems to be protected currently by the First Amendment. And of course it applies only to government and its affiliates.
You have made me think more deeply about this important issue, so your posts and words are not just "preaching to the choir."
Best,
David
Thank you for this. All of it is clarifying, reasoned, reasonable. It is a call for action from all of us who see the difference between hateful speech and hate speech.
I've been following the rise of open Jew-hatred on college campuses and it's very scary, totally reminiscent of Nazi Germany at the beginning of Hitler's reign. And that's not hyperbole. I've read dozens of books about that period, some by witnesses.
Here's an example of serious antisemitism at Houston's Rice University: https://blogs.timesofisrael.com/antisemitism-is-prevalent-on-my-us-campus/
It's not isolated--reports like this are coming in from across the country.
We all need the courage of Ruby Freeman and Shae Moss!
I come from Europe, have been living here for over 25 years now, and the free speech debate still baffles me. And I don't know the answer. In my native country Nazi symbols and speech are illegal. People have been tried (and found guilty - penalty is mostly a fine, but OK) for claiming that the Holocaust didn't happen. So, does that mean free speech is curtailed? Does it mean that "here in America" people are more free? Maybe... but what about the right of society to defend itself against toxic behavior? Where do we draw the line between hate speech and calls for violence? And even trickier, is making some forms of speech illegal threaten other forms of speech ... who decides? And just to add a scoop of complexity, take a look at recent election results in Europe. Hate speech is illegal and yet the extreme right is on the rise. The belief in the strength of the democratic system is eroding and that is much worse than morons in jackboots yelling slogans.
Jason McBride
Weird Poetry
"The right to free speech isn’t the right to be heard.
It’s the right not to be arrested or fined for your speech, that’s it."
Me.
Responding verbally to poisonous diatribes is like on a Halloween porch, kicking the flaming sack.
When I was protesting US foreign policy in the 80s with a small group on street corners I insisted we wave the Stars and Stripes.
You are one rightious Detroiter!
Thank you, Ramona, for connecting our essays. (I will do the same.) I'm glad we're taking time to add some post scripts. Your distinction between different kinds of speech is important.
I remember when people were laughing at the Tea Party in the early 2000s and they grew to become the Republican Party we see today. We want to call things fringe and wave their comments away when we should be monitoring it. They were “crazy” back then but Roe was overturned and people seriously think trans women are men in dresses, a ridiculous idea that now has very real legislation behind it.
Recognizing the presence and even marginal proliferation of hate groups or hateful individuals is part of remaining vigilant and responding to embers before fire spreads.
You are so spot on. I agree with every single word. Bravo.
I just do not see it. You would think there are Nazis around every corner. I have not encountered them on this platform probably because I am not looking for them or do not have common interests. I am not saying they do not exist in the world but I think their presence is minimal.
Well written 🙂
Ramona, you’re from Detroit? 😃
I am not denying they may be represented on this and other platforms. However be careful who you call a fundamentalist of any stripe. We are all looking for the bogeyman rather than the light.
We're not going to give it to them at all - but we aren't going to stoop to their levels either. Anyway, IMO censorship is a bad idea on every count - (short article) https://open.substack.com/pub/humanpolitics/p/censorship-is-never-the-answer
They are human. And denying that doesn't gain us support, it gives them leverage. It is precisely because I so hate Nazis that I'm calling for their opinions to be allowed here.