Interesting, Michelle. Can I ask you a question? When the two of you are working on a piece how do you divide the work? Is it a matter of one writing a draft and the other making suggestions, or do you actually split the work, even at the draft level?
I agree that writing in a group and critiquing takes careful ground rules and exquisite sensitivity. I remember a convo in one of our groups threatening to go south fast when someone accused someone else of being jealous. But then someone else laughed and said, "Of course she's jealous. Our middle name is 'jealous'! We're all here because we're so jealous we can't stand it and we want to show off!" Couldn't argue with that. 😄
Ramona I believe writing ultimately boils down to what you believe in either good,bad or even the ugly.And as a writer I am accountable for what I write and publish.That makes me a lone wolf but then that is perfectly OK.For some writing is a colloborative job and for others it is a solitary one.For me it is always me,myself and my thoughts in action.
Yes, I agree that it boils down to whatever works for you. My mission here is to talk about these things to get a feel for how our community works. There is no judgement, no right or wrong--just different methods!
It totally depends. I found tremendous value in being part of a critique group when I was regularly writing poetry and fiction. Now, not a single soul sees my newsletters before they are published (which may be a bad thing, I don't know).
I think we writers need to do what works best for us in this particular phase, and maybe it's less important whether we characterize ourselves as doing it one way or the other. We change, our work changes, our needs change.
Yes, for sure our goal should always be whatever works best for us. I'm interested in our differences as well as what binds us, and that's why I ask these questions.
I always write my first draft alone. Sometimes I do some out loud brainstorming with close friends/family or other writers, but I am quite protective of my early drafts. That said, once I have a version I'm somewhat comfortable with, that's when I solicit feedback from someone else--usually just one person, occasionally two.
I liken this strategy to the way Stephen King approaches his writing. Just last month I read his memoir On Writing and he says he writes his first draft "with the door closed," meaning no outside input, just focusing on getting the story on the page. Once that's down, that's when he opens the door and has his wife read his work.
I'm not a huge Stephen King fiction fan, but his book, On Writing, was a revelation for me. Someone gave it to me as a gift, or I might not have read it when it first came out. That would have been my loss.
King mainly says, 'do it your way after you've learned enough to do it your way'. I loved that his wife reads his work at some point, but she's a writer herself, and from what he says, a tough but fair editor.
When I was writing political opinion my husband was my 'first reader', and he was good at it. He found countless places where my thinking was too fuzzy or obscure for readers who weren't mind readers. He's no longer able to do that, and I sometimes wish I had a trusted editor again, but if I'm writing something complicated, I try to put on my editor's hat and read it as a stranger to my writing might. I don't know if I succeed, but that's the way I do it now.
Aristotle said that only a a beast or a God could live in solitude. Nietzsche amended it and said there is a third, a philosopher. I am adding that there is a fourth...the writer! Solitude is needed for creativity to bloom, don't worry about others, do your own thing craft your own style.
Great advice. I've always liked quiet times away from anyone else, so writing off by myself is the natural state of things. I'm not exactly a 'loner', but I'm a huge fan of solitude. I like being alone, especially when I'm trying to create something. I can walk around in the quiet and think. No distractions.
It's how Thoreau handled his writing. He didn't live in the wilderness, but when he was in his writing throes, he behaved as if he did. (He was known to wander into the village on occasion, and his mother left his lunch on the doorstep every day.)
Even though I first put my thoughts on paper as a solo effort, all my books have required considerable research. I've contacted experts in many different fields, and they have become consultants and in one instance, in a sense, an informal collaborator. I've immensely appreciated and enjoyed that give-and-take. I also belong to a writing group and we share book chapters and offer suggestions (and fix errors we spot!) My editor, who is someone I first knew in junior high school (that's a story in itself), is open to reading and re-reading a chapter at a time, a unique arrangement which I find beneficial. So yes, I create the intitial ideas, but many other eyes see my words during the process of writing each book. and I believe the work is stronger because of it.
Susan, that makes perfect sense when writing a book. I guess I'm thinking more along the lines of essays or poetry these days, since I've given up all hope of finishing the novels I've started oh, so long ago.
But when so many people are helping you work out your story, does it ever get overwhelming? Do they ever give you completely opposite advice, so that you have to try and figure out which one works for you? And does that just add to the time it takes to finish a book?
When I seek out an "expert" I only do so after doing extensive research and compiling a list of questions. I've been fortunate in that these people have generously answered questions and read over sections to be sure what I have is accurate. Regarding the group of authors who share our work, it's nice that we respect each other and everyone's input is positive. Mostly it's a single chapter we submit for comments, though I have asked some of these people to be beta readers. I should have mentioned those people as well. I generally have five to seven beta readers who give me good feedback, sometimes pointing out a plot hole I've missed which is definitely helpful! In the end, it's my book, and while I consider the comments I receive I don't necessarily include them unless, as I said, I believe they make the work stronger. Perhaps my work as a stage director over thirty plus years comes into play here, since that kind of experience requires the collaboration of many people of diverse talents.
Hi Ramona! Good question, and put me down as a solitary writer! I'm confident in my writing, and am used to self-editing. Much of what I write is my memories and experiences (meeting & hanging with rock stars), anyway, so collaborating is off the table from the start.
And, in my music critique/comparison/analyzing, my experiences in radio and the record biz give me the confidence, also, to (hopefully) make it sound like I know what I'm talking about!
I think you've hit on it, Brad. Confidence! It's what I lacked when I started out and felt the need for constant validation. The other side of it that the input from other writers isn't always sincere. If they're friends, they'll do everything they can not to add to our angst, and that includes telling the truth. I found it best to hone my own editorial judgement and let the chips--or words--fall where they may.
I'm not surprised you're a solitary writer. Your writing is all you and it shows. 😄
That's sweet, Ramona....thanks! As I inch toward 70, I become more keenly aware that I've always had a love affair with words. But, it's only recently that I've felt comfortable (able?) to fully embrace that. For instance, I'm rarely more relaxed or "mellow" than when I'm doing a crossword puzzle or similar "variety" word puzzle (like those published by Penny Press).
And, regular writing also gives me a chance to "live with" my friends who won't ask me to drive them to the airport.........words! Word play, word selection, synonyms, the whole shebang!
I fear our younger writers may not have a good relationship with words to the point where engaging them for writing is viewed as something positive. I'm wondering if they think of writing as something they THINK they'd like to do (like going to the dentist on a regular basis), but then, they lack a working relationship (not unlike a human one that has to be nurtured!) with words, which ends up stifling their creativity, or at least their discipline to sit down and actually do it!
I used to teach 4th and 5th grade math, and would have no problem admitting to my kiddos that I was allergic to numbers. Joking, of course, but I wanted to put them at ease that, not only was I NOT going to shoot over their heads with high-falutin math concepts, but the students who were slow (like me) to warm to those crooked things called "numbers" needn't keep their math anxiety.
How many of our writers feel as ill-at-ease with words the way I've always felt about numbers? And, I think I'm gonna concoct an equation that will stun a scientist somewhere? I don't see that happening! Thankfully.😉
I mostly write solo, but I have a patient wife who reads my stuff when I ask her to and gives me honest feedback. (Also excellent proofreading.) Sometimes I just want an outsider opinion, sometimes I want a female perspective on my subject matter.
And when I write about conversations with my wife, well, it helps to have the conversation first! (Although that's more of a guideline than a rule, really.)
I prefer writing alone. Some of that is because I know my subject matter (music), and some of it is because I don’t want anyone to see it before it’s ready. It’s a dissonant mix, but it works…
In terms of my newsletter, I prefer mostly to write and edit alone. But there are definitely times when I find it hard to ascertain whether all of the necessary aspects of the point I'm trying to make have made it out of my brain and onto the page. Those are times when I wish I had an editor close at hand. The honest truth is that I don't get things done enough in advance to utilize an editor that I have to send things back and forth with.
With the book I'm working on, I'm going to share it with a couple of readers once the whole first draft is done. Well... maybe the second draft. Like Anne Lamott, I believe that a finished shitty first draft is better than never writing, so I might want to wait until the second one.
I love that Ann Lamott quote. It did wonders for freeing us all up to just get it done! I think if I were writing a book I might want more sets of eyes on it. It's so easy to get bogged down in minutia and miss the obvious mistakes.
But blogs/essays are much easier to edit. They're our own thoughts and should only be interpreted by us. As I see it.
I'm only just now finding a sense of community with other writers, and I'm excited at what it is bringing me. I've learned so much. That hasn't really involved collaborating on writing, but more just having others to connect with who understand some of the journey.
For my newsletters, I'm lucky enough that my parents are very good at proof reading and picking up errors or unclear areas. I think it's important that my writing does have at least one other pair of eyes before it goes out, as I know I miss things. Also, I'm writing with a conscious goal of explaining scientific issues to non-experts, so having someone who doesn't have a science background read it is a huge help.
One of the writer groups that I belong to does a bit of critiquing of each other's writing, but it's not the focus of the group, it's more about connecting and learning. That said, I feel as if the limited bits of critique I've had have been helpful.
Writing still feels solitary to me. I live alone and I write alone. But I definitely value the insight another pair of eyes can bring.
Thanks so much for your thoughts on this, Melanie. I'm drawn to the idea of community for writers (thus Writer Everlasting), and what excites me most is how willing we are to talk about the things that matter to us, no matter where we go with it.
We each find that place where we're most comfortable, and often it's the complete opposite of someone else's place. It's interesting, too, how often we creatives change our minds and go in a different direction. What works for us this year may not work at all next year. And it's okay.
Interesting, Michelle. Can I ask you a question? When the two of you are working on a piece how do you divide the work? Is it a matter of one writing a draft and the other making suggestions, or do you actually split the work, even at the draft level?
I agree that writing in a group and critiquing takes careful ground rules and exquisite sensitivity. I remember a convo in one of our groups threatening to go south fast when someone accused someone else of being jealous. But then someone else laughed and said, "Of course she's jealous. Our middle name is 'jealous'! We're all here because we're so jealous we can't stand it and we want to show off!" Couldn't argue with that. 😄
Thanks so much for explaining, Michelle. It sounds like a fine partnership. And it works!
Ramona I believe writing ultimately boils down to what you believe in either good,bad or even the ugly.And as a writer I am accountable for what I write and publish.That makes me a lone wolf but then that is perfectly OK.For some writing is a colloborative job and for others it is a solitary one.For me it is always me,myself and my thoughts in action.
Yes, I agree that it boils down to whatever works for you. My mission here is to talk about these things to get a feel for how our community works. There is no judgement, no right or wrong--just different methods!
It totally depends. I found tremendous value in being part of a critique group when I was regularly writing poetry and fiction. Now, not a single soul sees my newsletters before they are published (which may be a bad thing, I don't know).
I think we writers need to do what works best for us in this particular phase, and maybe it's less important whether we characterize ourselves as doing it one way or the other. We change, our work changes, our needs change.
Yes, for sure our goal should always be whatever works best for us. I'm interested in our differences as well as what binds us, and that's why I ask these questions.
Thanks for your input.
I always write my first draft alone. Sometimes I do some out loud brainstorming with close friends/family or other writers, but I am quite protective of my early drafts. That said, once I have a version I'm somewhat comfortable with, that's when I solicit feedback from someone else--usually just one person, occasionally two.
I liken this strategy to the way Stephen King approaches his writing. Just last month I read his memoir On Writing and he says he writes his first draft "with the door closed," meaning no outside input, just focusing on getting the story on the page. Once that's down, that's when he opens the door and has his wife read his work.
I'm not a huge Stephen King fiction fan, but his book, On Writing, was a revelation for me. Someone gave it to me as a gift, or I might not have read it when it first came out. That would have been my loss.
King mainly says, 'do it your way after you've learned enough to do it your way'. I loved that his wife reads his work at some point, but she's a writer herself, and from what he says, a tough but fair editor.
When I was writing political opinion my husband was my 'first reader', and he was good at it. He found countless places where my thinking was too fuzzy or obscure for readers who weren't mind readers. He's no longer able to do that, and I sometimes wish I had a trusted editor again, but if I'm writing something complicated, I try to put on my editor's hat and read it as a stranger to my writing might. I don't know if I succeed, but that's the way I do it now.
Thanks for your input!
Aristotle said that only a a beast or a God could live in solitude. Nietzsche amended it and said there is a third, a philosopher. I am adding that there is a fourth...the writer! Solitude is needed for creativity to bloom, don't worry about others, do your own thing craft your own style.
Great advice. I've always liked quiet times away from anyone else, so writing off by myself is the natural state of things. I'm not exactly a 'loner', but I'm a huge fan of solitude. I like being alone, especially when I'm trying to create something. I can walk around in the quiet and think. No distractions.
It's how Thoreau handled his writing. He didn't live in the wilderness, but when he was in his writing throes, he behaved as if he did. (He was known to wander into the village on occasion, and his mother left his lunch on the doorstep every day.)
Even though I first put my thoughts on paper as a solo effort, all my books have required considerable research. I've contacted experts in many different fields, and they have become consultants and in one instance, in a sense, an informal collaborator. I've immensely appreciated and enjoyed that give-and-take. I also belong to a writing group and we share book chapters and offer suggestions (and fix errors we spot!) My editor, who is someone I first knew in junior high school (that's a story in itself), is open to reading and re-reading a chapter at a time, a unique arrangement which I find beneficial. So yes, I create the intitial ideas, but many other eyes see my words during the process of writing each book. and I believe the work is stronger because of it.
Susan, that makes perfect sense when writing a book. I guess I'm thinking more along the lines of essays or poetry these days, since I've given up all hope of finishing the novels I've started oh, so long ago.
But when so many people are helping you work out your story, does it ever get overwhelming? Do they ever give you completely opposite advice, so that you have to try and figure out which one works for you? And does that just add to the time it takes to finish a book?
When I seek out an "expert" I only do so after doing extensive research and compiling a list of questions. I've been fortunate in that these people have generously answered questions and read over sections to be sure what I have is accurate. Regarding the group of authors who share our work, it's nice that we respect each other and everyone's input is positive. Mostly it's a single chapter we submit for comments, though I have asked some of these people to be beta readers. I should have mentioned those people as well. I generally have five to seven beta readers who give me good feedback, sometimes pointing out a plot hole I've missed which is definitely helpful! In the end, it's my book, and while I consider the comments I receive I don't necessarily include them unless, as I said, I believe they make the work stronger. Perhaps my work as a stage director over thirty plus years comes into play here, since that kind of experience requires the collaboration of many people of diverse talents.
Hi Ramona! Good question, and put me down as a solitary writer! I'm confident in my writing, and am used to self-editing. Much of what I write is my memories and experiences (meeting & hanging with rock stars), anyway, so collaborating is off the table from the start.
And, in my music critique/comparison/analyzing, my experiences in radio and the record biz give me the confidence, also, to (hopefully) make it sound like I know what I'm talking about!
I think you've hit on it, Brad. Confidence! It's what I lacked when I started out and felt the need for constant validation. The other side of it that the input from other writers isn't always sincere. If they're friends, they'll do everything they can not to add to our angst, and that includes telling the truth. I found it best to hone my own editorial judgement and let the chips--or words--fall where they may.
I'm not surprised you're a solitary writer. Your writing is all you and it shows. 😄
That's sweet, Ramona....thanks! As I inch toward 70, I become more keenly aware that I've always had a love affair with words. But, it's only recently that I've felt comfortable (able?) to fully embrace that. For instance, I'm rarely more relaxed or "mellow" than when I'm doing a crossword puzzle or similar "variety" word puzzle (like those published by Penny Press).
And, regular writing also gives me a chance to "live with" my friends who won't ask me to drive them to the airport.........words! Word play, word selection, synonyms, the whole shebang!
I fear our younger writers may not have a good relationship with words to the point where engaging them for writing is viewed as something positive. I'm wondering if they think of writing as something they THINK they'd like to do (like going to the dentist on a regular basis), but then, they lack a working relationship (not unlike a human one that has to be nurtured!) with words, which ends up stifling their creativity, or at least their discipline to sit down and actually do it!
I used to teach 4th and 5th grade math, and would have no problem admitting to my kiddos that I was allergic to numbers. Joking, of course, but I wanted to put them at ease that, not only was I NOT going to shoot over their heads with high-falutin math concepts, but the students who were slow (like me) to warm to those crooked things called "numbers" needn't keep their math anxiety.
How many of our writers feel as ill-at-ease with words the way I've always felt about numbers? And, I think I'm gonna concoct an equation that will stun a scientist somewhere? I don't see that happening! Thankfully.😉
I mostly write solo, but I have a patient wife who reads my stuff when I ask her to and gives me honest feedback. (Also excellent proofreading.) Sometimes I just want an outsider opinion, sometimes I want a female perspective on my subject matter.
And when I write about conversations with my wife, well, it helps to have the conversation first! (Although that's more of a guideline than a rule, really.)
It's great to have that kind of intimacy with your editor/proofreader. I love that!
I prefer writing alone. Some of that is because I know my subject matter (music), and some of it is because I don’t want anyone to see it before it’s ready. It’s a dissonant mix, but it works…
That's what counts. That it works for you.
In terms of my newsletter, I prefer mostly to write and edit alone. But there are definitely times when I find it hard to ascertain whether all of the necessary aspects of the point I'm trying to make have made it out of my brain and onto the page. Those are times when I wish I had an editor close at hand. The honest truth is that I don't get things done enough in advance to utilize an editor that I have to send things back and forth with.
With the book I'm working on, I'm going to share it with a couple of readers once the whole first draft is done. Well... maybe the second draft. Like Anne Lamott, I believe that a finished shitty first draft is better than never writing, so I might want to wait until the second one.
I love that Ann Lamott quote. It did wonders for freeing us all up to just get it done! I think if I were writing a book I might want more sets of eyes on it. It's so easy to get bogged down in minutia and miss the obvious mistakes.
But blogs/essays are much easier to edit. They're our own thoughts and should only be interpreted by us. As I see it.
I'm only just now finding a sense of community with other writers, and I'm excited at what it is bringing me. I've learned so much. That hasn't really involved collaborating on writing, but more just having others to connect with who understand some of the journey.
For my newsletters, I'm lucky enough that my parents are very good at proof reading and picking up errors or unclear areas. I think it's important that my writing does have at least one other pair of eyes before it goes out, as I know I miss things. Also, I'm writing with a conscious goal of explaining scientific issues to non-experts, so having someone who doesn't have a science background read it is a huge help.
One of the writer groups that I belong to does a bit of critiquing of each other's writing, but it's not the focus of the group, it's more about connecting and learning. That said, I feel as if the limited bits of critique I've had have been helpful.
Writing still feels solitary to me. I live alone and I write alone. But I definitely value the insight another pair of eyes can bring.
Thanks so much for your thoughts on this, Melanie. I'm drawn to the idea of community for writers (thus Writer Everlasting), and what excites me most is how willing we are to talk about the things that matter to us, no matter where we go with it.
We each find that place where we're most comfortable, and often it's the complete opposite of someone else's place. It's interesting, too, how often we creatives change our minds and go in a different direction. What works for us this year may not work at all next year. And it's okay.