You're not alone. I've done a few classes (not groups, or workshops) that I felt were productive, mostly because the prompts were unusual and the exercises were original. Everything I wrote for these classes became a story later, so it was a good boost ... but the thing where everybody reads and critiques feels like a massive waste of time to me, and it comes out of a deep well of selfishness: I want to work on my own stuff, damn it, not somebody else's :) - Except when a friend sends me something and asks for honest feedback. That is really writer on writer, one on one, and that I enjoy!
If someone asks me for advice I'll do my best, but I always have it in the back of my mind that this is only my opinion. I'm not sure I'm much help, other than to be a sounding board. I can only look at it from my own perspective and that, in itself, has to be pretty narrow.
Absolutely, and that's how I look at what others tell me about my work too. Except my husband :) - he's a really good writer, and I better listen to what he says ... well, 80% of the time!
My husband was a great first reader for my political essays. He always found the place where I needed to clarify, and he would remind me of historical events that would fit in. But he was really the only one I trusted--even when I didn't always go along. 😏
I had a friend tell me at one of those sessions that the reason she was being so hard on me was because she loved my writing and this just ruined it. That from a 'friend'. 🙄
I love the way you think. And write! Regarding the workshops and homework, you and I are on the same page. Pun intended. A talking group, now that sounds intriguing.
I think -- especially for first draft -- that the Liz Lerman method can be really helpful. You open it up to statements of meaning, which are the things that stood out to you or something you liked/want to know more about. Then have people ask neutral questions ("why is this bad?" is not a neutral question, "I was curious about why this character chose to open the door, can you talk about it?" is), then open it to opinions if you want them. But as you advance as a writer, or are on the 10th draft of a thing, that may be less helpful. I always hate imposing my opinion on a writer, unless they ask me directly.
Since I am a playwright, reading aloud is sort of key to understanding if the thing works, but I imagine it isn't always helpful for prose. I agree that just talking about life is the most fun part of writing. :)
Yes, I've been caught a time or two when someone asked a clear question like your second one. And I learned from it! Probably still could. But leave that to a real workshop, the one billed as a real workshop. Not a retreat. That's all I ask. 😏
I share your thoughts on this issue. No more workshops for me. I've never gotten anything useful out of them. I left the last online 6-person group in May because, honestly, I just couldn't stand what I was reading from the other participants. Only one of them was a decent writer, but her topic didn't resonate with me -- reading work of the others was sheer torture. I told the leader later (feedback session) that I wanted a group where people would discuss WHY they were writing something. She said "hmm". I'd love to discuss WHY i've written things and how the process has changed me. Somehow that never comes up.
That's one of the main problems with critiques in small writer's groups. We can't all be interested in the topic or the genre. We can't admit we're bored because we want to be able to read our own work and we want them to like it.
Almost as bad as the cutthroat critiques--the ones where everyone loves everything.
In my dim youth (age 60) I signed up for the 2 week Skidmore thing. I learned a lot about the process of how colleges make money during summer seasons. I also learned that they will accept anyone who is not overtly psychotic, and that if you pay a little extra to have someone read your WIP these folks are actively forbidden from asking questions about your motives for writing it. I could have saved myself 3-4 yrs of anguish if someone had opened up that topic with me back then. I had to figure it out on my own, much later. Where is the venue for discussing the Inner Work of Writing?
They are expensive, aren't they? We haven't even talked about that. But really? You could pay to not have to talk about your motives? That just boggles...
I love this, Ramona. As I've shared here before, I was never a workshop person. In undergrad and grad school, I preferred going over my work one on one with my professor/mentors. None of them liked each other, so one on one worked better anyway. I hated the "peer review" workshops with fellow students. When freelancing, I'd save the comments from editors into a document but only read them after I "gave up" on a piece. Writing itself works best for me. And I live in a sylvan waterfront paradise, so I don't need quiet serenity.
I used to belong to a writers' group, and I used to host poetry workshops at my house (this is 20+ years ago), but it became too much like work, Ramona! It took something I loved and nurtured and turned it into work. And that, I will not do.
It's why I say no when people tell me to do an Etsy shop or start charging for my "how to shop at thrift store" tours. Or when they say, "You should draw on shoes and then sell them!" I don't want to turn my creative passion into work. It's enough for me to just DO the thing.
A snowstorm!? It is PISSING rain out here on the West Coast (Canada), so much that you can't see more than a kilometer (1/2 mile). I am NOT looking forward to getting soaked on the walk home.
I guess there's a belief, misguided though it may be, that people want to "improve," and in order for an event to be worth their investment, it has to deliver that. Or try to.
I'm not much of a retreat-er, rarely choosing to spend my dollars that way, or my time, or my limited energy. But were I to seek that out, I'd be far more inclined to join the sort of gathering you're describing.
It’s the kind of gathering that doesn’t need to cost a lot of money. It doesn’t need to be fancy. I wouldn’t want it to feel like a business, with order and schedules and rules. I don’t know what it would be. But I like that word ‘retreat’.
Interesting, isn't it, that we took a term that meant a military withdrawal, and turned it into a peaceful place to get away from everything? It is a delicious concept in the newer sense of the meaning.
Great post. I would love to just come here and talk about stuff.
I think I’ll do some of that in the days ahead. It really appeals to me, too. And why not? 💕
You're not alone. I've done a few classes (not groups, or workshops) that I felt were productive, mostly because the prompts were unusual and the exercises were original. Everything I wrote for these classes became a story later, so it was a good boost ... but the thing where everybody reads and critiques feels like a massive waste of time to me, and it comes out of a deep well of selfishness: I want to work on my own stuff, damn it, not somebody else's :) - Except when a friend sends me something and asks for honest feedback. That is really writer on writer, one on one, and that I enjoy!
If someone asks me for advice I'll do my best, but I always have it in the back of my mind that this is only my opinion. I'm not sure I'm much help, other than to be a sounding board. I can only look at it from my own perspective and that, in itself, has to be pretty narrow.
Absolutely, and that's how I look at what others tell me about my work too. Except my husband :) - he's a really good writer, and I better listen to what he says ... well, 80% of the time!
My husband was a great first reader for my political essays. He always found the place where I needed to clarify, and he would remind me of historical events that would fit in. But he was really the only one I trusted--even when I didn't always go along. 😏
I had a friend tell me at one of those sessions that the reason she was being so hard on me was because she loved my writing and this just ruined it. That from a 'friend'. 🙄
Hi Ramona,
I love the way you think. And write! Regarding the workshops and homework, you and I are on the same page. Pun intended. A talking group, now that sounds intriguing.
Yup. Looking forward to it. We'll see how it goes.
I think -- especially for first draft -- that the Liz Lerman method can be really helpful. You open it up to statements of meaning, which are the things that stood out to you or something you liked/want to know more about. Then have people ask neutral questions ("why is this bad?" is not a neutral question, "I was curious about why this character chose to open the door, can you talk about it?" is), then open it to opinions if you want them. But as you advance as a writer, or are on the 10th draft of a thing, that may be less helpful. I always hate imposing my opinion on a writer, unless they ask me directly.
Since I am a playwright, reading aloud is sort of key to understanding if the thing works, but I imagine it isn't always helpful for prose. I agree that just talking about life is the most fun part of writing. :)
Yes, I've been caught a time or two when someone asked a clear question like your second one. And I learned from it! Probably still could. But leave that to a real workshop, the one billed as a real workshop. Not a retreat. That's all I ask. 😏
TOTALLY AGREE. If you do no writing at all on a retreat, I think it is fine. Sometimes just clearing your head and socializing gets the gears turning.
I share your thoughts on this issue. No more workshops for me. I've never gotten anything useful out of them. I left the last online 6-person group in May because, honestly, I just couldn't stand what I was reading from the other participants. Only one of them was a decent writer, but her topic didn't resonate with me -- reading work of the others was sheer torture. I told the leader later (feedback session) that I wanted a group where people would discuss WHY they were writing something. She said "hmm". I'd love to discuss WHY i've written things and how the process has changed me. Somehow that never comes up.
That's one of the main problems with critiques in small writer's groups. We can't all be interested in the topic or the genre. We can't admit we're bored because we want to be able to read our own work and we want them to like it.
Almost as bad as the cutthroat critiques--the ones where everyone loves everything.
I'm getting bored just writing this. 😆
In my dim youth (age 60) I signed up for the 2 week Skidmore thing. I learned a lot about the process of how colleges make money during summer seasons. I also learned that they will accept anyone who is not overtly psychotic, and that if you pay a little extra to have someone read your WIP these folks are actively forbidden from asking questions about your motives for writing it. I could have saved myself 3-4 yrs of anguish if someone had opened up that topic with me back then. I had to figure it out on my own, much later. Where is the venue for discussing the Inner Work of Writing?
They are expensive, aren't they? We haven't even talked about that. But really? You could pay to not have to talk about your motives? That just boggles...
I love this, Ramona. As I've shared here before, I was never a workshop person. In undergrad and grad school, I preferred going over my work one on one with my professor/mentors. None of them liked each other, so one on one worked better anyway. I hated the "peer review" workshops with fellow students. When freelancing, I'd save the comments from editors into a document but only read them after I "gave up" on a piece. Writing itself works best for me. And I live in a sylvan waterfront paradise, so I don't need quiet serenity.
"Choose a job you love, & you will never have to work a day in your life." Workshops = 👎🏻 work
I used to belong to a writers' group, and I used to host poetry workshops at my house (this is 20+ years ago), but it became too much like work, Ramona! It took something I loved and nurtured and turned it into work. And that, I will not do.
It's why I say no when people tell me to do an Etsy shop or start charging for my "how to shop at thrift store" tours. Or when they say, "You should draw on shoes and then sell them!" I don't want to turn my creative passion into work. It's enough for me to just DO the thing.
A snowstorm!? It is PISSING rain out here on the West Coast (Canada), so much that you can't see more than a kilometer (1/2 mile). I am NOT looking forward to getting soaked on the walk home.
Yes, I think it’s the work aspect that bothers me. I do enough of that on my own.
I guess there's a belief, misguided though it may be, that people want to "improve," and in order for an event to be worth their investment, it has to deliver that. Or try to.
I'm not much of a retreat-er, rarely choosing to spend my dollars that way, or my time, or my limited energy. But were I to seek that out, I'd be far more inclined to join the sort of gathering you're describing.
It’s the kind of gathering that doesn’t need to cost a lot of money. It doesn’t need to be fancy. I wouldn’t want it to feel like a business, with order and schedules and rules. I don’t know what it would be. But I like that word ‘retreat’.
Interesting, isn't it, that we took a term that meant a military withdrawal, and turned it into a peaceful place to get away from everything? It is a delicious concept in the newer sense of the meaning.
Yes! I hadn’t thought of that.
Hi Ramona, I, too, cannot stomach the idea of one more workshop or conference, for that matter. There have been so many over the years.